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Author Topic: In Game Death  (Read 8364 times)

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Offline RieNamkrow

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In Game Death
« on: December 28, 2014, 07:42:03 am »
Hello! I was wondering how death will work in the game? Since you have fighting/starvation/health and all that.
Will it be like it was in Impressive Title/Impressive World/SoE? Or something else?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 08:24:56 pm by CorruptTempest »
                                                                             
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Offline Mercy

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2014, 05:59:39 pm »
There has actually been a lot of debate on how death will work in IoE. To some degree, we want to dissuade people from dying. However, we also do not wish to punish players too harshly that it becomes frustrating.
It is something we are open to discussing. In fact, we had a thread about it on the old Sanctum forum.

At this point, we are leaning towards a progressive punishment system. That would mean, the more you die, the worse it gets for you each time.

When you die, you will be transported back to the Mother Tree on Morewe (the center isle). She has the power to protect and heal you, so if you die, she will revive you.
With a progressive system....
The first time, that is all that happens.
The second time, something may be taken from you.
The third time, even more will be taken from you, and so on.

However, as I stated in the beginning, this is up for debate and we are happy to hear other opinions or methods for dealing with death.

We are firm that there must be some kind of repercussion for death, so that players don't run out will-nilly dying here and there all the time because they had no reason to be careful.

Offline cclm

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2014, 06:16:27 pm »
I like the sound of progressive punishment. And I'm not yet familiar with everything that you can collect to go into specifics, but what about a craftable sack that can hold a limited amount of things? Just in case you die when you have very hard to get items or just items in general. These would be the only items that would stay with you the entire time without worry of losing them when you die. There wouldn't be a large amount of things that you can keep permanently maybe 6 to start out? Just to keep things a little more challenging.

That way there could be strategies for playing the game, like with Minecraft you need armour and to make tools at the beginning. So this bag would be a way to go about doing that, and then with work it could be upgraded to hold more items. And it could be a way to keep with 'losing' things but at the same time let players keep things they worked for hours to get or make.

Actually I have a question about the system in mind, does the death toll ever reset?

For instance if someone just started playing and dies five times because they don't know what they're doing and then once they have learned the ropes they die again but this time it's for the sixth time (so its a higher punishment) and there is more valuable things to lose.


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Offline RieNamkrow

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2014, 03:11:19 am »
Ah, hmm..I like the idea of progressive death, though I am kind of worried with newbies figuring stuff out still. I guess it all depends on how easy it will be to die. Maybe a little more warnings over time? Truthfully, I am not sure what to suggest for death.

Maybe there could be a way to lower the risk after multiple times of dying? Like a spell? Or there will be a period for newbies to have a lower risk.

I really like cclm's idea, though! I'd hate to possibly lose something that took me so long to get. It'd frustrate the heck out of me lol
                                                                             
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Offline Maniac

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2014, 04:19:47 pm »
The concept of progressive punishment for dying was based in large part due to our awareness that there will be a learning curve to the game. We do have to focus on the main theme of the game which is survival,learning and development of your character but understand that this will take time and hard work. The step system of dying that we are implementing takes these concerns into account and allows the time for them before the repercussions increase significantly. Also there is going to be a tutorial single player campaign provided at the beginning before you enter the game that will aid in learning the tricks to survive. Finally of course is common sense to not race out immediately and tackle the big bosses and such but start with a smaller bite and work your way up as you increase your character strengths and skills.

Offline RieNamkrow

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2014, 04:02:59 am »
Ahh, alright. Thanks for clearing that up for me! That does sound good.
                                                                             
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Offline Eyanosa

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2014, 05:56:07 am »
Hopefully it won't be like either EQ or FFXI. In EQ, which, admittedly I only played for like 20 minutes because of this, if you died, you dropped everything. Had someone do that to me as soon as I joined and quit. In FFXI, if you died, you would lose your experience and that only made it even harder to level. I don't recall if it was just down to your current level or if you could lose your levels (haven't played that since 2004), but I do remember it being one of two reasons I left for WoW. The other being that penalty forced you to always have to find a party to ensure you didn't lose experience just because you were a squishy.
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Offline Maniac

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2014, 01:40:51 pm »
Hopefully it won't be like either EQ or FFXI. In EQ, which, admittedly I only played for like 20 minutes because of this, if you died, you dropped everything. Had someone do that to me as soon as I joined and quit. In FFXI, if you died, you would lose your experience and that only made it even harder to level. I don't recall if it was just down to your current level or if you could lose your levels (haven't played that since 2004), but I do remember it being one of two reasons I left for WoW. The other being that penalty forced you to always have to find a party to ensure you didn't lose experience just because you were a squishy.

Its a harsh world waiting for us on the islands to be sure but you can rest assured that losing everything and all your experience WILL NOT be one of the lessons that await. As previously mentioned there will be a progressive punishment  set-up intended for if you continue to die. This still is on a much less brutal scale than you are describing and starts off extremely subtle and very slooowly increases in intensity. So if you are taking no caution with your safety and you chronically continue to get yourself killed without a care then you might start to see items missing from your inventory. More likely; you will find your energy sapped and your health down and you will have to crawl back to your private isle to recoup from the minor flesh wound of death.

Offline -Firestar-

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2014, 07:17:39 pm »
Corpse running is a truly archaic game design from some of the first MMOs. One would hope no modern game has such a mechanic as it really was/is a very much hated design.

I like the idea of progressive returns. If you want to keep your stuff, you need to rest a bit before going out.

Offline Dirge

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2014, 07:39:29 pm »
I played FFXI for a number of years and you do in fact level down if you lose enough EXP. It's a pretty good motivation to, you know, not die. It also served as an initiative to make sure you were prepared before embarking on a difficult mission. It made sure everyone knew their role in the group and what they had to do to help everyone else succeed. Earning back lost EXP wasn't too big of a deal though and was made basically trivial by Level Sync when that came along, and as far as I know there's now some ways to solo significant amounts of experience that were implemented after I stopped playing on retail servers around 2009 or so.

Anyway before I go on too much of a tangent here, this sort of utter brutality isn't very well received in modern games, and for good reason I think, because it might not always be the player's fault if their character ends up all dead and such, and punishments like the loss of items are mostly just frustrating because they undo gameplay that's largely based on chance. The death punishments I think work best are the ones that leave your character in a weakened state or unable to perform certain gameplay functions until you're healed and rested, since the only thing the player loses is time.

Offline Eyanosa

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2014, 07:45:12 pm »
Yeah, I had a feeling it was the 'de-lvl' option, just couldn't remember. I do; however, remember how horrible it was to get into bad groups and consistently lose your xp because of one or two bad eggs heh. But other than that, I will agree with you completely on what works best. To possibly lose an item that could have taken months due to bad rng just because someone you were partied with failed to pay attention, is a bad thing. But, to just lose some time while you rest and wait for your punishment to end (i.e. WoW's 10 minute, 75% stat reduction, rex sickness), is more preferable. Though that is just IMHO.
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Offline Maniac

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2014, 07:53:26 pm »
Since we are still in the midst of coding in these particular aspects there is absolutely room for adjustments. I love to hear player input on this and I am extremely willing to consider all sides. We will and always will do our best to meet all expectations, wants and consider all views equally to come up with the best outcome. Thank you all for continuing to post ideas and information. Keep up the great work!

Offline -Firestar-

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2014, 06:17:31 pm »
Hmm... Well, I don't like corpse runs and it's very frustrating to lose a fight due to a few bad rolls on the RNG. I'm trying to think of a modern MMO with some interesting mechanics, but they're either ruthless or negligible. No real in between system that I can think of off the top of my head.
 
Ironically, Istaria's "new" system was interesting to me (made a few years ago) and lines up with what you have going already. (I'm going to make up some numbers here since I can't remember exacts, sorry.)

Basically, when you die, you get a deathpoint. One death point does nothing, but if you get two, you get -10% to your stats. Three is -25% and the deathpoints stack. In addition, the time to relive them goes up almost in a j curve. The first one takes 5 mins to wear off. The second takes 20 mins. If you get a third, that's an hour.

Since it's not realistic to wait around for an hour, you sit in a tavern and eat player made food which reduces the timers. The food themselves have a cooldown, so you can't just eat the same thing over and over again. You can eat a main course, a drink, a dessert and a side dish and altogether take off one death point. There's something like 4 sets of food each tier and 6 tiers (tied to your level)

It is rather complicated, but it seems to mirror what you have envisioned already. :) The goal for this type of system to be put in for that game though was to give crafters a real purpose.

While you can heal up in your home, I'd also like to see a common area for this too so you can sit around with other players instead of being alone.

Offline Maniac

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2014, 07:48:51 pm »
LOL I would love to imagine the convo going on in the common area awaiting return from death......

Offline Forest

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Re: In Game Death
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2015, 04:10:35 am »
It's definitely a delicate balance to be struck.  Punish too lightly, there's no reason to fear death.  Punish too hard, you drive away players who have a bad day, a bad group, or miscalculate their abilities (*raises hand* so says the king of doing so, lol).

I like the idea of a protective sack.  Items in there cannot be dropped.  Or perhaps some items can't be dropped at all (I.E. The uber super nothing better than this blade or whatever).  Not sure about reduced stats.  Again, you don't want the timer to be too long.  The again, it feels right given the type of world it is.  You just died!  You gotta regain your strength a bit.

A lot of MMO's these days just take EXP on death though.  In PWI (Perfect World International), you would never drop a level, but after level 55 (level cap 105), death could REALLY set you back a bit.  And since you needed more EXP the higher you got, the penalty was worse.  If you were almost to level 100, then die, you often lost as much as a 25% of your EXP, which amounts to a lot of work.

Got some good ideas here.  Keep em coming.
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